Ok! If you survived my initial diatribe and you have come back for more - I can tell you there is a little crumb of wisdom that will help you avoid a lot of headaches! Shopping on the interent is like buying a used car on Western avenue in Chicago - except you stll can't look under the "hood." So how do you avoid buying a watch that hasn't been properly restored. The warranty is not an absolute assurance - trust me! Nope , you need hard proof!
If you ask the dealer to provide a Vibrograph tape of the watch you are buying and he can't provide it - run for your life! The Vibrograph is the premier diagnostic tool that every legitimate watchmaker must have. This device is like an EKG for a watch! The print out it produces is the verification of the watch's performance. The tape should have a striaght line down the middle that consists of little dots. Diagonal lines going to the left or right reveal positional errors. Positional errors are the result of a damaged balance staff and that means the watch does not run accurately in those relative positions. Why? Because, all watches are affected by gravity to some degree. The balance staff is the major moving part in your watch and it serves as the axle for the balance wheel which combined with the hair spring determines if the watch runs fast or slow! The balance wheel oscillates back and forth 18000 beats per hour! The balance staff has two pivots - top and bottom that are about three times the thickness of a human hair! They are simply the tapered down ends of the staff. Yep, they are fragile! If the watch has suffered any kind of impact one or both of those pivots at the end of the staff will be damaged - resulting in a balance wheel that wobbles and causes excessive friction at the point where the damaged pivot enters the jewel cup. This creates the positional error because the friction on that pivot will increase or decrease depending upon the position of the watch. Ideally, a perfectly straight balance staff allows the perfect rotation of the balance wheel and thus even pressure and friction at both ends of the staff, this results in positional errors that are very minor and can be compensated for to some degree!
If he has properly serviced the watch he will be able to provide the tape that the Vibrograph prints out! This tape will not ensure that you got a fair deal but it will ensure that you get a watch that works properly and is reliable! After all, that's half the battle. So, make sure to get it straight............ on the tape!
Thursday, March 19, 2009
Wednesday, March 18, 2009
It's about time someone tells ya about the vintage watch business! I've seen it from the inside. I've been selling watches for a boutique shop for almost twenty years! Whether you buy a legitimate vintage timepiece or any pre-owned watch - the bottom line is; do your homework before you buy!
How do you determine the value of something for which there may be no comparison? Here's where it gets tricky! What is a given watch worth? Words like worth and value become kind of ambiguous when the owner controls the market - or thinks he does! Is a watch really worth what the guy that has it says it is? First you have to realize that if he is willing to wait until someone is willing to "pony up" he controls the value of that watch but not necessarily the entire market. The Internet makes this clear! There are cases where relatively, rare watches can be found for significantly different prices. The reality is there are dealers who are just plain greedy! Maybe they can afford to wait for a buyer - or the business is just a hobby for them. Certainly there are some dealers who are independently wealthy. Rarity is the foremost issue in determining the value of a vintage watch. Condition is a big issue also! Obviously, any rare watch will not command the same amount as an example of the same watch that is in much better condition. The problem is; how do you know? Cosmetics are easy to discern but what if you can't look under the "hood?' Every dealer is going to claim that his merchandise is in great condition. Can he prove it? How do you know who is reputable. So, I would say the accepted market rules simply do not always apply in the vintage watch business. In my own experience - sometimes a watch is worth whatever my boss says it is. Take it or leave it! If he has one of the only examples of that particular watch available - you have to pay what he wants for it. Who's to say if his price is reasonable? Sometimes my boss may put an outrageous price on a watch that can be easily had from another dealer! There are several words for this kind of behavior. Regardless it shows a lack of regard for what the market will bear under normal circumstances! So, there are many variables that determine what your going to pay for a watch but the character of the dealer is - in my mind - of foremost importance! If he has no regard for market principles - you are at his mercy if he has the watch you want!
My boss makes a point of telling people that vintage watches appreciate ten to twenty percent - per year. If you believe him youv'e never bought a watch before! Believe me; ONLY THE VERY MOST RARE AND DESIRABLE WATCHES APPRECIATE BEYOND RETAIL! If you pay retail prices at a shop like ours the reality is you will never realize a profit if you decide to sell it yourself in the near future! If you are concerned about conventional value maybe you shouldn't buy a vintage watch! A watch purchase is more like buying art. Don't ask a dealer if it's good investment either - which happens all the time in my shop! You'll get the speech I talked about before! If they ask me - I tell customers - much to the consternation of my boss - if you want a good investment buy real estate - not a watch! I tell them to buy a watch because they love it - have to have it - and want to wear it! Occasionally we have customers that want to sell watches back to us or trade them in for credit on a new purchase. I can tell you that not one has ever made a profit selling a watch back to us - no matter what it was - not in the 18 years I have been here! I sometimes wonder if they remember that speach about appreciation - that they got when they bought it originally!
So it's tough to say what a watch is really worth. You can try to find comparables on the internet. Of coarse you can't compare what you see on ebay to the merchandise available at a store like ours! Many stores - like us - have web sites. Check out as many as you can. At least you can perhaps find some parameters of reason. Maybe not! Some prices don't make any sense - even to me!
If you are really serious and intend to buy something that is very rare and expensive you may consider researching recent auctions too. This gets tricky too because you may not be able to tell what the real condition of the watch was. Many auctions sell "as found" merchandise! Some sell items that are later found to be less than 100 percent original. In fact, in a recent Antiquorum auction called "OMEGAMANIA" - they had to refund some buyers who found out that significant peices they had purchased were not original! Yep, even the so called experts couldn't tell a Chinese fake when the held it right in their hands! That's pretty scarey! Additionally some of the extrordinary prices realized at the auction were used as an excuse to inflate the values of comparable timepieces by particular dealers - my boss included!
If you are interested in a Rolex or some other popular brand it will be much easier to determine a valid market value. Watches like Cartier and Rolex are closely traded so there is a recognized market and values on pieces of comparable condition are easy to discern. Everyone in the watch businees acknowledges the value of a Rolex Subamariner of a given series and vinatge so it's hard for a dealer to gouge a customer on a watch like that! Still it's not beyond many dealers to assert that theirs is more expensive because it's in such good condition! If you see the same watch on different sites with different prices you have to wonder why one is so much more than the other. Study the sites and see who tends to be more expensive - and if it actually correlates to condition and general quality. Remember that the internet has blurred the lines between retail and wholesale. Some guys sell watches in " as found condition." This means the watches are not restored. Don't compare that to a shop that sells completely restored watches. Look at their warranties! Everyone wants to feel like they got a good deal and that the prices are warranted.
If you come into my shop and ask why my watch costs more than the one you saw on ebay - I may punch you! It happens occasionally! Not the punching part actually! Granted , our watches are generally twenty to thirty percent more than anyone else! Why? My boss will tell you that we have the best merchandise available! That may be true but I'm not sure that our stuff is thirty percent better than anyone elses! Nope , I think he just decides what he wants for a watch and nothing else really matters! If I was going to parse it in a nicer way I would say that he just decides what he has to have for it - so he can make sure he's here tomarrow! That leads to another interesting issue; the role of overhead. In our case - there is huge overhead that may or may not be justified. Do you pay more because a guy has enormous personal or business , financial challenges? If you want a watch that only he has - the answer is yes! In the case of a small family business - you are going to pay pay to support lifestyle choices and business expenses too! Our prices went up twenty percent when his kids collage tuition bills started to arrive! Remember though - a guy with a brick and mortar shop is different than a guy that just has an internet presence. Again study the websites. Try to discern what categories a guy falls into. Is he a guy that just has a web site and sells stuff that he doesn't restore? Look at the turn-over too. If a guy has the same stuff on his site for years - take note! If he has Bulova's or Elgin's for more than 400 bucks - he's either greedy or crazy! I don't care how nice it is - no Bulova is worth 800 bucks! You may find the prices on ordinary stock may reflect an over all approach that tells volumes!
Ultimately , the most important thing is what it's worth to you to have a certain watch on your wrist! Hey, this is a luxury business so if you buy a nice watch you have to figure that you are supporting a guy that likes a little luxury in his life too! If you can accept that - go for it, but be careful. Of coarse, no one likes to be gouged!
How do you determine the value of something for which there may be no comparison? Here's where it gets tricky! What is a given watch worth? Words like worth and value become kind of ambiguous when the owner controls the market - or thinks he does! Is a watch really worth what the guy that has it says it is? First you have to realize that if he is willing to wait until someone is willing to "pony up" he controls the value of that watch but not necessarily the entire market. The Internet makes this clear! There are cases where relatively, rare watches can be found for significantly different prices. The reality is there are dealers who are just plain greedy! Maybe they can afford to wait for a buyer - or the business is just a hobby for them. Certainly there are some dealers who are independently wealthy. Rarity is the foremost issue in determining the value of a vintage watch. Condition is a big issue also! Obviously, any rare watch will not command the same amount as an example of the same watch that is in much better condition. The problem is; how do you know? Cosmetics are easy to discern but what if you can't look under the "hood?' Every dealer is going to claim that his merchandise is in great condition. Can he prove it? How do you know who is reputable. So, I would say the accepted market rules simply do not always apply in the vintage watch business. In my own experience - sometimes a watch is worth whatever my boss says it is. Take it or leave it! If he has one of the only examples of that particular watch available - you have to pay what he wants for it. Who's to say if his price is reasonable? Sometimes my boss may put an outrageous price on a watch that can be easily had from another dealer! There are several words for this kind of behavior. Regardless it shows a lack of regard for what the market will bear under normal circumstances! So, there are many variables that determine what your going to pay for a watch but the character of the dealer is - in my mind - of foremost importance! If he has no regard for market principles - you are at his mercy if he has the watch you want!
My boss makes a point of telling people that vintage watches appreciate ten to twenty percent - per year. If you believe him youv'e never bought a watch before! Believe me; ONLY THE VERY MOST RARE AND DESIRABLE WATCHES APPRECIATE BEYOND RETAIL! If you pay retail prices at a shop like ours the reality is you will never realize a profit if you decide to sell it yourself in the near future! If you are concerned about conventional value maybe you shouldn't buy a vintage watch! A watch purchase is more like buying art. Don't ask a dealer if it's good investment either - which happens all the time in my shop! You'll get the speech I talked about before! If they ask me - I tell customers - much to the consternation of my boss - if you want a good investment buy real estate - not a watch! I tell them to buy a watch because they love it - have to have it - and want to wear it! Occasionally we have customers that want to sell watches back to us or trade them in for credit on a new purchase. I can tell you that not one has ever made a profit selling a watch back to us - no matter what it was - not in the 18 years I have been here! I sometimes wonder if they remember that speach about appreciation - that they got when they bought it originally!
So it's tough to say what a watch is really worth. You can try to find comparables on the internet. Of coarse you can't compare what you see on ebay to the merchandise available at a store like ours! Many stores - like us - have web sites. Check out as many as you can. At least you can perhaps find some parameters of reason. Maybe not! Some prices don't make any sense - even to me!
If you are really serious and intend to buy something that is very rare and expensive you may consider researching recent auctions too. This gets tricky too because you may not be able to tell what the real condition of the watch was. Many auctions sell "as found" merchandise! Some sell items that are later found to be less than 100 percent original. In fact, in a recent Antiquorum auction called "OMEGAMANIA" - they had to refund some buyers who found out that significant peices they had purchased were not original! Yep, even the so called experts couldn't tell a Chinese fake when the held it right in their hands! That's pretty scarey! Additionally some of the extrordinary prices realized at the auction were used as an excuse to inflate the values of comparable timepieces by particular dealers - my boss included!
If you are interested in a Rolex or some other popular brand it will be much easier to determine a valid market value. Watches like Cartier and Rolex are closely traded so there is a recognized market and values on pieces of comparable condition are easy to discern. Everyone in the watch businees acknowledges the value of a Rolex Subamariner of a given series and vinatge so it's hard for a dealer to gouge a customer on a watch like that! Still it's not beyond many dealers to assert that theirs is more expensive because it's in such good condition! If you see the same watch on different sites with different prices you have to wonder why one is so much more than the other. Study the sites and see who tends to be more expensive - and if it actually correlates to condition and general quality. Remember that the internet has blurred the lines between retail and wholesale. Some guys sell watches in " as found condition." This means the watches are not restored. Don't compare that to a shop that sells completely restored watches. Look at their warranties! Everyone wants to feel like they got a good deal and that the prices are warranted.
If you come into my shop and ask why my watch costs more than the one you saw on ebay - I may punch you! It happens occasionally! Not the punching part actually! Granted , our watches are generally twenty to thirty percent more than anyone else! Why? My boss will tell you that we have the best merchandise available! That may be true but I'm not sure that our stuff is thirty percent better than anyone elses! Nope , I think he just decides what he wants for a watch and nothing else really matters! If I was going to parse it in a nicer way I would say that he just decides what he has to have for it - so he can make sure he's here tomarrow! That leads to another interesting issue; the role of overhead. In our case - there is huge overhead that may or may not be justified. Do you pay more because a guy has enormous personal or business , financial challenges? If you want a watch that only he has - the answer is yes! In the case of a small family business - you are going to pay pay to support lifestyle choices and business expenses too! Our prices went up twenty percent when his kids collage tuition bills started to arrive! Remember though - a guy with a brick and mortar shop is different than a guy that just has an internet presence. Again study the websites. Try to discern what categories a guy falls into. Is he a guy that just has a web site and sells stuff that he doesn't restore? Look at the turn-over too. If a guy has the same stuff on his site for years - take note! If he has Bulova's or Elgin's for more than 400 bucks - he's either greedy or crazy! I don't care how nice it is - no Bulova is worth 800 bucks! You may find the prices on ordinary stock may reflect an over all approach that tells volumes!
Ultimately , the most important thing is what it's worth to you to have a certain watch on your wrist! Hey, this is a luxury business so if you buy a nice watch you have to figure that you are supporting a guy that likes a little luxury in his life too! If you can accept that - go for it, but be careful. Of coarse, no one likes to be gouged!
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